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Sunday, August 12, 2012

Sometimes The Bible Is Wrong


Who was it again who was telling me that conservative Christians were nothing like Islamic fundamentalism? just-dave? Some TSM commenters?

44 comments:

GuardDuck said...

Are you implying that the sign holder is a conservative Christian?

Mark Ward said...

No

GuardDuck said...

So what's the connection between the picture and your commentary?

juris imprudent said...

A putative Christian saying the Bible is wrong eh? Maybe you shouldn't be basing your life at all on the tribal precepts of stone age goat herders. That "brother's keeper" part comes before this one.

Mark Ward said...

It's a debate I've had for some time with the right....there are no similarities between Christian conservatives and Al Qaeda. Yet this sign shows that there are. Obviously, evangelicals here aren't going to kill non virgins but the Bible tells them they can. If they ignore this part of the Bible, who is to say they can't ignore other parts?

GuardDuck said...

That doesn't make any sense Mark.


You don't imply that the sign bearer is a conservative Christian - yet you still use the sign to 'show' the similarity between them and Al Qaeda.

What is the similarity?

Mark Ward said...

The sign bearer is demonstrating (as am I) that the Bible is sometimes wrong. In addition to that point, I'm pointing out that there are similarities between how conservative Christians view women and how Al Qaeda view women. If the Bible says that women should be executed for not being virgins, why aren't they?

GuardDuck said...

You aren't 'demonstrating' that the bible is 'wrong'. You are demonstrating that our modern mores and thoughts differ from that of the old testament.

But I still don't see you actually pointing out any similarities between conservative Christians and Al Qaeda.

The little short cut your brain uses in it's internal Rorschach test needs to be explained. The connection isn't obvious nor intuitive.

Serial Thrilla said...

It's not obvious to you because either your are being a dick or you are a dumb ass doofus. Maybe you haven't seen the news from a few weeks ago from Afghanistan when a woman was executed for adultery.

GuardDuck said...

By conservative Christians serial? No? Then what is the comparison?

Perhaps, if it is so apparently obvious to you, then you could lay out the type of logical and coherent argument that so befuddles Mark .

juris "bully weasel" imprudent said...

ST gurgles: Maybe you haven't seen the news from a few weeks ago from Afghanistan when a woman was executed for adultery.

And that relates to Americans how? I guess it must slander someone here somehow, huh?

Serial Thrilla said...

I thought you didn't believe in the old man in the sky, juris. Their Bible commands them to execute adulterers. Just like the Muslims do in Afghanistan.

GuardDuck said...

But they aren't doing that.. ...

So I guess that means they are just exactly like Al Qeada then right?

Still trying to figure out what the comparison is.

Mark Ward said...

Yes, that's true. They aren't. But the Bible says the can. So why aren't they?

GuardDuck said...

Maybe because they are nothing like Islamic fundamentalists?

Just a thought.

juris imprudent said...

GD: 1+1=2

M & ST: 1+1=whatever we want it to equal.

Mark Ward said...

Maybe because they are nothing like Islamic fundamentalists?

You aren't answering my question. If they aren't like them, they must ignore parts of the Bible, right?Why? Could it be because parts of it are wrong? I'd like you to at least admit to that.

juris imprudent said...

You aren't answering my question.

What fucking question? You keep saying that Christian fundies are just the same as Islamic fundies by pointing out how differently they act.

GuardDuck said...

You aren't answering my question.


Maybe if you asked the question like a question and not like some throw away rhetorical device after a long spiel of bullshit, poorly presented argument and logical disconnects......


Could it be because parts of it are wrong? I'd like you to at least admit to that.

Which definition of wrong are you using for this purpose?

1.
not in accordance with what is morally right or good: a wrong deed.

or


2.
deviating from truth or fact; erroneous: a wrong answer.

Larry said...

Perhaps Mark can explain to us how conservative Christians are just like Islamic fundamentalists, based on this sign?

Mark Ward said...

Here's a simple yes/no question for all of you: Do both texts in the Christian and Muslim religion advocate the execution of adulterers?

Yes or NO?

The answer to this question is the answer to your question, Larry.

GD, #1.

GuardDuck said...

So, you are saying that ALL Christians (and Jews since that quote is from the Old Testament) as well as ALL Muslims are similar to Al Qeada?

That's what you are saying?





To answer your question then Mark, yes, I can agree that parts of the bible are 'wrong', as I pointed out earlier, in a subjective manner a moral judgment can be made based upon the cultural bias' I have.

But since that judgment is based upon a subjective judgement rather than an objective observation then I (and you) are simply using one set of moral codes to judge a differing set of moral codes.

And since I think your whole point to this is to try to prove that since the bible is 'wrong' in one regard - it says one can kill an adulteress, yet the fundies don't do that - then the bible can also be 'wrong' about homosexuality and that the fundies shouldn't be all up in arms about that either.

If so, stop right there. It don't fly. That sort of 'proof' is a logical construct that would require the use of the second definition of wrong - i.e. the factually based or incorrect 'wrong'.

But since the 'wrong' you are using is only 'wrong' from the standard of a set of moral beliefs used in 'judgement' of a differing set of moral beliefs then your 'proof' only provides proof utilizing the set of moral beliefs that is doing the judging, not the set being judged.

Larry said...

Since conservative Christians don't execute women for adultery, and fundamentalist Muslims do, but you're unwilling to admit that, methinks you're trying to do the "squidink and slink" away from yet another dopey post.

I'm not a Christian and yet even I know full well that Christians don't follow the Law (pork, circumcision, and all kinds of other crap), thanks to St. Paul's rather Greek take on Jesus' teachings. That doesn't keep Christian fundamentalists from selectively using parts of the Old Testament while ignoring other parts from the same book.

No, I think you've been caught out in stupidity again, otherwise why wouldn't you be asking the same thing about liberal Christians? nd why not anything about Jews? After all, they all use the same holy book. "Non sequitur, your name is Markadelphia."

Mark Ward said...

It's funny how small, little posts like this turn into something much bigger when nerves are hit.

Recall that I was simply pointing out that saying conservative Christians and Islamic fundamentalists are nothing like one another isn't really honest. There are, in fact, similarities.

As I have said many times as well, I don't think we'll be seeing many or any for that matter, Christian fundamentalists going off and killing adulterers or gays. Any sort of incident will pretty much ruin the image of conservatives overall and we can't have that with so much at stake this year, can we now?

GuardDuck said...

There are, in fact, similarities.

Could you perhaps, possibly, pretty please - show some then?


That whole - both their books have mistakes thing is, well, fucking stupid as an example.

Hey look, I'll use some Markalogic too!

Christians are just like Al Qeada because they share 99% of the same DNA! Proof positive suckers!

juris "bully weasel" imprudent said...

Here's a simple yes/no question for all of you: Do both texts in the Christian and Muslim religion advocate the execution of adulterers?

I don't fucking care. See, now THAT there is some nuance for you Mr. Yes or No.

Maybe you need to post a junior high school religious zealot purity test just to clear this all up? At this point that would represent a slightly more mature level of discourse then the one you are currently on.

Larry said...

M: I don't think we'll be seeing many or any for that matter, Christian fundamentalists going off and killing adulterers or gays

In which case there's not much similarity, is there? So what was the fucking point of this post, then, except general numbskullery?

I'd be ashamed of putting up anything so dreadfully dopey, but you do seem to take pride in it.

Mark Ward said...

Could you perhaps, possibly, pretty please - show some then?

Uh..ahem...that would be the part about how each religion apparently condones the execution of adulterers....the stuff we've been talking about...and stuff.

I'll throw in their views on homosexuality as well since cognitive dissonance apparently occurs whenever I mention the first example.

So what was the fucking point of this post, then, except general numbskullery?

That the Bible is sometimes wrong...that would be the title of the post. And that they are not completely dissimilar as I have been assured that they are.

juris imprudent said...

And that they are not completely dissimilar as I have been assured that they are.

OK, the scriptures of both say homosexuality is a sin and can be punished by death, right? That part is similar.

Now, is there any govt entity in this country that puts that religious belief into actual effect, versus say the fine govts under the thrall of Islamic scholarship? Oh, there isn't - is there? I guess they aren't as similar as you insist they are.

GuardDuck said...

Uh..ahem...that would be the part about how each religion apparently condones the execution of adulterers....the stuff we've been talking about...and stuff.


Uhhhh....OK.



So Mark, as a Christian yourself, are you also not dissimilar from Al Qaeda?

Or is there some distinguishing 'level' of Christianity that you aren't throwing under this same blanket of absurd comparison?

I call it absurd because it most assuredly is. Let me show you your argument.

Conservative Christians are similar to Al Qeada following this logic:

The Quran says things that are wrong*.
The Bible says things that are wrong.

Al Qeada reads the Quran.
Conservative Christians read the Bible.

Al Qeada does the things that are wrong.
Conservative Christian, uhhhm, don't do the things that are wrong......

So, again - Where is the similarity?





Mark Ward said...

So Mark, as a Christian yourself, are you also not dissimilar from Al Qaeda?

I don't believe in Republican Jesus so there are no similarities between myself and Al Qaeda. I think both religions contain teachings that are simply wrong for today. I also don't have a bizarre obsession with sin as RJ believers do that makes me very different from them as well. In short, I THINK...which is a big no-no with conservative, religious types of any sect.

So, again - Where is the similarity?

At this point, it's obvious that you are pissed off that I pointed out some and are now just fucking around. At least juris acknowledged that I was right about each religion's views on homosexuality. Will you? So far, it seems you are being a coward by not recognizing this fact.

juris imprudent said...

The problem with your whole asshattery here M is that you equated people, not scripture.

I don't fucking agree or concede that to you in the slightest.

GuardDuck said...

At this point, it's obvious that you are pissed off that I pointed out some and are now just fucking around.

No, I'm dumbfounded at your inability to process simple logic.

You have not pointed out shit.


Follow along:

Quran says gay is bad.
Bible says gay is bad.

Al Qeada kills gays.
Conservative Christians don't kill gays.
Markadelphia doesn't kill gays.

You have more in common with conservative Christians than they do with Al Qeada.

If you can make the distinction between what the Bible says and what you practice - why are you so completely unable to do the same when talking about what the bible says and what conservative Christians practice?

As juris said - you have equated people but used scripture as your 'proof'. Using that same standard - the same standard and 'logic' you are using - and applying it to you then since you are a 'Christian' and the Bible says 'wrong' things then you are wrong and just like Al Qeada - your protests notwithstanding.

Mark Ward said...

The problem with your whole asshattery here M is that you equated people, not scripture.

No, I equated both. My point was that there are similarities between conservative Christians and conservative Muslims. They were NOT, in fact, completely dissimilar as I have been told repeatedly by..well..conservatives. Their scriptures tell them the same thing...it's OK to murder non-virgins...gays are evil etc. That is the similar part. Where it's not similar is how they act with conservative Christians thankfully not executing anyone.

But by not doing that, aren't they ignoring parts of the Bible? If so, that's fine by me and am happy to hear that they aren't completely deranged. Of course, that also means that they are copping to the fact that the Bible is open to interpretation-something that they have also assured me is NOT allowed. Do they think the Bible is then wrong in some parts? Again, I hope so because so do I...which would mean I do have something in common with conservative Christians.

Quran says gay is bad.
Bible says gay is bad.


Right...which means that saying that there is nothing in common between conservative Christians and Islamic fundamentalists is false, correct?

juris imprudent said...

Right...which means that saying that there is nothing in common between conservative Christians and Islamic fundamentalists is false, correct?

Unless you are going to throw out ALL of the Bible then it isn't conseravative Christians in that equation - it is all Christians (except maybe those that believe in the Book of Mormon instead of the Bible). That includes you Mr. Self-proclaimed Christian.

A. Noni Mouse said...

I'm not a Christian and yet even I know full well that Christians don't follow the Law (pork, circumcision, and all kinds of other crap), thanks to St. Paul's rather Greek take on Jesus' teachings. That doesn't keep Christian fundamentalists from selectively using parts of the Old Testament while ignoring other parts from the same book.

This has been explained to Mark before, but since he refused to understand it then, and he's still making the same mistake now, I don't expect him to get it. But for those of you who do understand logic, I offer this explanation.

The law Marky has his panties in a bunch over is part of Israel's civil laws. In other words, they are laws that applied only to the nation of Israel at that time. They did not apply to surrounding nations, and they do not apply to us today. For example, if you lived in Persia at the exact same time these laws were in effect, you would not be put to death for adultery based on Israel's laws. On the other hand, if Persia had a law against adultery, you might be punished under Persia's law.

Laws about "pork, circumcision, and all kinds of other crap" were laws that applied only to the nation of Israel under the Mosaic Covenant. (The "contract" made with Israel while Moses was their leader.) That Covenant ended with the formation of the New Covenant, which was Jesus' death and resurrection. At that point, not even the Jews were under the old law. (It was repealed.) So certain laws which were only ever given to Israel and never repeated elsewhere, no longer apply to anyone.

Now God has certain standards (morality) that He wants all humans to obey. Violation of those standards is sin, and every human is answerable to God for his adherence to those standards.

But those standards are not civil law. In Old Testament Israel, God's standards (plus some) were also made to be civil law.

In every other nation in history, each nation's government sets up its own civil laws based on what they think is right. (Morality) These laws often agree on clear moral issues even if they vary in punishment. For example, most nations have laws against murder. The specifics can vary, but God does not directly set up those laws or punishments.

That is why Christians don't carry out the laws exactly as in the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible). They were only for the Nation of Israel. What God called sin; especially in the New Testament, is still sin, but it's not civil law, even when there is significant overlap.

To take a concrete example. The adultery law and punishment in Deuteronomy is Israel's law. If you don't live in ancient Israel in Israel, that law and its punishment do not apply to you. God also calls adultery sin, but he will handle those sins himself, not humans. If where you live has a law on adultery, then the punishment defined in your local law is the one that applies in that government's territory. No law in the United States calls for the death penalty for adultery, so no Christian tries to carry out a punishment from a foreign law.

Mark Ward said...

Hey, A. Noni, good to have you back.

That Covenant ended with the formation of the New Covenant, which was Jesus' death and resurrection.

What else ended with the Old Covenant? (Hebrews 8:12)

So why is it then that all those laws that apply to Israel were thrown out (eating of shellfish etc) but not the law about being gay?

GuardDuck said...

Mark: Red delicious and Granny smith are just like each other.

GD: But red delicious' are red and granny smith's are green.

M: But they are both apples, so they are just like each other.

GD: Ok, then Yellow delicious are also like red delicious and granny smiths.

M: No!!! Yellow delicious are yellow, the others are not yellow so yellow delicious are not like the others.

GD: If you are going to differentiate based on color - then the others are not like each other because one is red and the other is green.

M: But they are both apples!!!

Wash, rinse, repeat.....

A. Noni Mouse said...

Same old Marky, still belligerently ignorant:

M: So why is it then that all those laws that apply to Israel were thrown out (eating of shellfish etc) but not the law about being gay?

Previously stated: What God called sin; especially in the New Testament, is still sin,

Mark Ward said...

And if it is an abomination? Then what?

Apparently, you didn't go read Hebrews 8:12. Go read it and tell me what you take away from that.

A. Noni Mouse said...

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
— Revelation 20:12–13

If your (mis)take on Hebrews 8:12 were true, this would not be possible.

I'm done here. I've made my point for anyone who actually wants to understand the details. I'm not going to waste any more time trying to teach the pig to sing.

Mark Ward said...

Yeah, you're going to be judged alright, Noni....on how you treat the least among us. I wonder what Jesus would think about your attitude about the poor...you know, it's all their fault that they are poor.

"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." (Hebrews 8:12 NIV)

"And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us." (1 John 4:16-19 NIV)

Clearly, Noni, you are not made perfect in love.

juris "bully weasel" imprudent said...

M's God is a mighty convenient God!

Mark Ward said...

juris, I truly do enjoy your comments in the religious threads. It's too bad they don't get more response by those who believe in Republican Jesus as Noni does above. Ah well...