Other than the reason of safety, which I agree is certainly a reason to check out a gas meter, what other reason could CenterPoint have for demanding access to my home? BLK answered it quite well in comments yesterday.
It is probably not the case that Big Bad government is forcing the gas company to do useless inspections. My guess is that the gas companies demanded the ability to do this because they want to be able to read meters so that they can charge you for the gas you use.
Bingo! So, is it really all that crazy to say that my theory is just that CenterPoint wants to make sure that they keep making tons of cash? No, it's not. So let's go back to the original question, posed by juris.
"What specific power has a corporation used to abuse you?"
Centerpoint Energy is forcefully demanding access to my home to make certain that they are getting every last penny they can out of me. Centerpoint knows full well that the old meters, like the ones I have, aren't as reliable as their new ones. They also know that they can't just say, "We demand more of your money so either let us in your home or we will get a court to force us in." Instead, they found another way to get in...a legitimate one, mind you...so now they can honestly say, "It's for safety."
Thus, Centerpoint Energy is forcing their way into my home so they can abuse me financially.
BLK raises another interesting point.
Corporations operate completely behind the scenes, we can never really know who is really behind the passage of laws. Corporations hire independent lobbyists, who talk to lawmakers behind closed doors. And of course, lobbyists are very frequently also involved with raising campaign contributions (usually with "bundling"). Depending on what state you live in you may or may not be able to find out how much corporations are spending on lobbying your representatives.
I have been asked several times to point to a specific example of corporate abuse. Even though I have done so above, I still say...how about all of it? The ENTIRE system. With the recent SCOTUS ruling in the Citizen's United case, can anyone honestly say that corporations DON'T now run everything? But hey, I'm a reflective guy so I'm going to give all of you another example of corporate abuse: the financial industry.
Elizabeth Warren, current chair of the TARP committee, was the first guest on Real Time with Bill Maher last Friday night. Ms. Warren stated, in no uncertain terms, that it was business as usual for financial services in this country. "The problem couldn't be more obvious," she said, "the solutions couldn't be more obvious. Lobbyists from the financial service industry, in numbers I have never seen, descend upon our representatives 2-4 times a day...writing position papers for them...and making certain they are in line.
"The financial institutions of our country are still trading in the high risk instruments that sent us into this recession in the first place," she stated unequivocally. So, my bank can still take my money and gamble it on air. Great.
Tell me again...who's the entity using force again?
In looking at all of this, one has to wonder...what in the fuck are people like the Tea Partiers talking about when they say that the government is taking over everything? It's obvious to me that the government hasn't done shit. Any time President Obama makes even the slightest noise about bank restrictions, the 12 year old girls that are the financial services industry begin to whine and cry. This, in turn, sets off a cascading effect which trickles down to folks like the commenters at TSM or the Tea Partiers who then respond with the outrage, paranoia, and fear bomb.
When you think about it, it's truly an ingenious way of controlling the way people think.
Private industry is beautiful....all corporations love you....they are golden, warm and snuggly....they only wish to raise quality of life....anyone who doubts this is a commie and wants to steal your guns and hard earned tax dollars...like Markadelphia...read Ayn Rand...read George Orwell...the government is bad....the government is bad....the government is bad....the government is bad....the government is bad....
It's sort of like...a cult.
28 comments:
I refuse to consider any longer that you're a creature of even remote rational thought. You can clearly put words together in syntactically correct English, but it is evident from this load of horse shit that you're unable to integrate concepts whatsoever.
It has to be masochism. I can think of no other reason for you to still be backing this loser.
Please get back to me when you can find proof that corporations can, on their OWN authority:
imprison me
execute me
confiscate my goods
fine me
I don't see what the big deal here is. Force? Yeah, they do that all the time. Why is this so shocking? They want to make more money and they know that their company is the only place you can honestly get heat from so they really have you over a barrel.
Fine you...this would be the raising of rates.
Confiscate my goods...that would be more money. You have no choice if they raise your gas rates.
execute me...well, they can refuse you health insurance and without it you may die so you are partially right.
imprison me...I suppose they can't do that but neither can the government without cause. Wait, sorry, wrong about that one. Thanks to the people I'm sure you have supported they can now. Cheers!
Hmmm…trying to follow this. If, as you say, it’s just about the money and not about safety or gov’t regulations, to which I do not agree, but for the sake of argument, let’s follow that path. So Centerpoint knows that your old meter is not as reliable as a new meter and they want to change it, however, you want to keep the old one……Why?
Am I incorrect in assuming that you want the old, unreliable meter simply to cheat Centerpoint out of the correct amount of gas that you’ve used? Who then is it 'all about the money' for?...
Or am I misinterpreting your statement?
dick,
Ever heard of the PUC? (Public Utilities Commission) My guess is "No".
"Thus, Centerpoint Energy is forcing their way into my home so they can abuse me financially."
Snort! Chuckle!! OMG!!! ROTFL!!!!!!! I JUST CAN'T TAKE IT!!!!!!!!!!
They want to "abuse" you by accurately charging you for gas you actually use??
That's it! "Abuse" is definitely on the list!!
And where, oh where did you get the idea that this is an actual reason? I mean, besides pulling it out of your, sorry, I mean BLK's a**??
E V I D E N C E ! ! ! ! ! (As in "scientific method"; another phrase in the Marxaphasia Dictionary of Muddled Meanings)
Well, Mark must be wrong about all of this as yet another anonymous has declared he is insane.
Cult, indeed.
It's not corporate abuse for companies to be able to ascertain the amount of money you owe them. If you don't want to give the gas company access to your home, I'm sure that you could petition the court to have a county deputy come in and read the meter. And then the gas company will bill you one last time and disconnect your gas.
When you started accepting gas from the gas company you either gave them an explicit consent when you signed a contract, or if there was no contract you gave them the implied consent to read your meter.
Either way you knew that they would have to be able to read your meter to be able to charge you for the gas you use, and by accepting and paying for that gas for the last several years you endorsed that implied consent every time you paid the bill.
I know you're just yanking our chains, but you do yourself and people who hold similar beliefs a big disservice by making bogus arguments about corporate abuse of political power where there really is none.
A better argument would be to cite the sweetheart deal that the Bush NHTSA gave Toyota in 2007 when they allowed Toyota to limit the number of cars they recalled with acceleration problems. According to documents Toyota's Washington unit wrote, they bragged about saving $100 million by delaying action on the acceleration problems ("safety wins"), and tons of other money by delaying side-impact airbags and other safety actions that could have saved lives and reduced injuries to American citizens.
We'll be hearing more about this when Toyota's CEO
testifies before Congress this week.
Kevin said:
"It has to be masochism. I can think of no other reason for you to still be backing this loser.
Please get back to me when you can find proof that corporations can, on their OWN authority:
imprison me
execute me
confiscate my goods
fine me"
I really can't believe you are so unfamiliar with life in these United States, Kevin.
Private security guards can imprison you if they suspect you have stolen something from them, or are trespassing. Unlike government employees, they don't have to read you your rights. It's not clear how long they can hold you before they have to release your or notify the authorities.
Many prisons are run by private corporations these days. These private prison corporations lobby hard for stricter laws so that they retain prisoners longer and make more profit. It's a huge industry these days.
More than once recently there have been privately-run juvenile institutions that made back-room deals with judges to incarcerate children accused of petty crimes in those facilities at government expense. Bribery and other crimes are obviously involved here, but there are concrete examples of a corporation doing exactly what you say they can't do in order to make a profit.
In many states armed private security guards can just shoot you if they claim you were trespassing or they had reason to fear you -- even if that fear was merely an imaginary one on their part. You might bicker about whether that's execution or murder, but you're just as dead.
Gun laws in many states have been changed to make it much easier to kill someone just because you're "afraid."
In many states private towing companies can take your car if it's parked in the "wrong" place and charge you hundreds of dollars to "store" it for you. Usually this is when you park on a street that needs to be plowed or in a private parking lot without permission. Towing companies fight each other bitterly to get contracts with municipalities to get the right to tow cars from snowy streets. In many cities these contracts are rife with corruption.
Until today, I believe, credit card companies could fine you for not paying your bill on time after they raised your interest rate retroactively. New regulations, which conservatives fought bitterly, have now gone into effect that prevent many credit card company abuses, but there's still no limit on the amount of interest they can charge -- they just have to give you 45 days notice when they jack your rates up.
And credit card companies, cell-phone companies can all fine you if you violate certain terms of contracts, all on their own, if you signed the contract.
Finally, corporations sue people all the time. While not exactly a "fine," they can use the government to force you to pay them money if they can convince a court. While it's not "all on their own," they have much deeper pockets than individuals and can use the court system to coerce people to pay them immediately and stay out of court, because paying a lawyer will bankrupt most regular guys.
The reason Mark's reasoning is so frustrating here is because it's so common on the left, and so destructive. Chief among them being - if you are concerned by what you perceive as abusive corporate behavior, but just stop there rather than finding out whether such abuses require a complicit government, then you will likely call for increased government power to combat those abuses that resulted from too much government power in the first place. Thus making the overall problem worse in the long run.
This failure to see the forest for the trees occurs over and over, and Mark isn't the first to express it.
last said it last time, and here blk does this absurdity just a bit of justice with
I know you're just yanking our chains, but you do yourself and people who hold similar beliefs a big disservice by making bogus arguments about corporate abuse of political power where there really is none.
This is just so sadly fucked up as to be beyond description. This is right out there in Truther/Birther/ChemTrailer alternate reality.
I'm sorry I goaded you into this.
blk dips into delusion with
Gun laws in many states have been changed to make it much easier to kill someone just because you're "afraid."
Got any stats to back that up? How about an anecdote or two? Actual changes in any state's laws?
Didn't think so.
BLK spouts leftist crap but at least he isn't a tangent machine like M.
"These private prison corporations lobby hard for stricter laws so that they retain prisoners longer and make more profit. It's a huge industry these days."
Prove it! This is the most absurd thing I have read here yet.
"More than once recently there have been privately-run juvenile institutions that made back-room deals with judges to incarcerate children accused of petty crimes in those facilities at government expense. Bribery and other crimes are obviously involved here, but there are concrete examples of a corporation doing exactly what you say they can't do in order to make a profit."
Prove this too. It may well exist as anything seems possible but give me a concrete example. I am really interested to hear it.
"In many states armed private security guards can just shoot you if they claim you were trespassing or they had reason to fear you -- even if that fear was merely an imaginary one on their part."
Prove it. This isn't some imaginary law is it?
"Gun laws in many states have been changed to make it much easier to kill someone just because you're "afraid.""
You reading from the Anti-gunners talking points memo? Are you referring to the castle doctrine? What part of the law specifically defines "afraid"? I didn't see that in my Texas law. Show me where you get that info because you sound like a fool.
"And credit card companies, cell-phone companies can all fine you if you violate certain terms of contracts, all on their own, if you signed the contract."
Seriously? It is a contract. Rule of law that you agree to terms. By the way, this new consumer protection for credit card holders:
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/02/distortionary-effects-of-regulations.html
I advise you and M to read this economics blog cause you both need it more than anyone.
"Thus, Centerpoint Energy is forcing their way into my home so they can abuse me financially."
Getting an accurate gas meter reading and sending a bill to you for the gas you used to heat your home = financial abuse. Got it.
C'mon M, admit it - please. This was all just a big put on and you don't really believe any of it. Right?
6 Kings,
Regarding the for profit juvi detention centers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html?_r=1
http://www.timesleader.com/news/hottopics/judges/JUVENILE_DETENTION_CENTER_TIMELINE_01-26-2009.html
http://www.timesleader.com/news/hottopics/judges/Records_for_many_juvie_cases_at_stake_07-28-2009.html
http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/ex-luzerne-judges-withdraw-guilty-pleas-1.209449
I guess I must be the first one to notice that it's not actually Center Point that is getting access to your home. It's a company called RMR. To me, that says that the folks at Center Point don't even want to catch the shit for this so they have a bitch boy they can send in to get yelled at. Chicken shits...
Blk...
On "imprisoning".
Security staff can detain people eg in retail until the cops show up yes. Guess what? So can you, or I, if I catch an intruder in my home. World of difference. Imprisoning is an entirely different matter. Prisons run by corporations do so at the behest of government. They do not have the power to send you there - only government can do that. Tow companies tow cars not for being parked in the wrong place but for being parked illegally, and usually have to be called to do so. Tow companies do not make the law. Credit card companes do not confiscate your money. You enter into a contract with them and you have already agreed to the charges you are subject to. You are paying for a service and if you did not read the contract before you signed it that is your responsibility.
So none of the examples you cited, blk, are examples of corporations acting on their OWN authority. Fail.
"C'mon M, admit it - please. This was all just a big put on and you don't really believe any of it. Right?"
Well, juris, I don't think Center Point Energy is going to be storming my home on a regular basis and shackling my family off to prison. I will also stipulate that they came into my house for a safety reason as I mentioned twice in the post. There are different levels of abuse, however. This would be a minor one-financial. And they are still the ones, not the government, seeking the court orders.
The fact is that I have no choice but to get my heat from them unless I want to burn wood. You say that's the fault of the government. I say that's the fault of the energy lobby who tells Congress what to do. You live in Cali, right? Wouldn't you say that PG & E abused their customers with the whole hexavalent chromium fiasco?
What I truly don't understand is the dichotomy here...
"We're from the government-we're here to help"
is showcased as the worst thing in the world to hear. And yet...
"We're from Center Point Energy-we're here to help"
is just dandy and not questioned. To do so would mean I am insane. And that, my friend, shows the most excellent job the cult has done in brainwashing large swaths of the populace. Corporations always=wholesome goodness.
Note: I am not implying that you are brainwashed or insane and I still have a great deal of respect for your perspective.
Interesting word shift here. From "Power" to "Abuse". Are you running away from your "corporate power" claims?
I also think it's fascinating that you consider "paying for gas you actually use" to be "abuse". Is that the same as "paying your mortgage" is equal to "slavery"? That strikes me as being very similar to "Plane Idiot" being pissed off at the IRS because he was expected to pay money that he actually owed.
"And they are still the ones, not the government, seeking the court orders."
I'll repeat the exact same questions I asked in the thread for Part 1:
What is a "court order"? Who has the authority/power to issue one? Who has the authority/power to enforce one? Can the company do anything (anything legal, that is) to gain access to your house on their own (without asking the government to invoke government power)?
Plus one more: What happens if the company chooses not to ask for that court order?
"The fact is that I have no choice but to get my heat from them unless I want to burn wood."
Wow. That's too bad. Around here we're allowed to install whatever heating equipment we like. Oil. Geothermal. Gas. Electric. Heat pump. Wood. Coal.
There are different levels of abuse, however.
Really - it is abusive to pay for what you use? It is abusive for the company to do a safety inspection so that you or your neighbor's house doesn't explode?
Anyone with half a brain would've stopped digging after the first post. When the zombie apocalypse comes, you got nothing to worry about.
"it is abusive to pay for what you use?"
Of course not. So why do my rates go up suddenly and for no reason? I'd love to be able to go to a different company but I can't. Now how about an answer regarding PG & E?
Your claimed point was that corporations have Power/Authority, not that they abuse people. You may NOT shift the goalposts here.
That they sometimes abuse people is a given, but they are answerable to legitimate government authority to punish those companies and people involved in such abuse.
Did PG & E have power to imprison people, execute people, or confiscate goods? In other words, were they a law unto themselves?
The answer is NO. They were punished by Governmental Power for their Crimes.
"Of course not."
Then why did you make the claim that it is abuse? Were you wrong?
"So why do my rates go up suddenly and for no reason?"
dick nixon made the same basic charge. I already answered it in my first post in this thread (the 5th comment from the top).
Hexavalent chromium fiasco. Interesting. As a chemist, working where I do, I was responsible for setting up systems to analyze hexavalent chromium. Erin brockovich made our lab a lot of money in the resulting scare, as we were one of the first in our area to offer testing at such low levels.
There's a thing or two you should know about hexavalent chromium. One is, it's pretty unstable. Another is, it simply cannot exist in an acidic environment - like the human stomach. Heck, we would have to add base to collected samples to ensure that any Cr6 present would not degrade before we could test it. Another thing you should know is that the holding time for Cr6 unbuffered was 24hrs due to it's instability. I think any problems caused by Cr6 would likely be from inhalation, rather than ingestion for the reasons stated. I have to say that I'm skeptical of the determination that Cr6 in drinking water was the problem there, based on my own experience.
Hexavalent chromium fiasco. Interesting. As a chemist, working where I do, I was responsible for setting up systems to analyze hexavalent chromium. Erin brockovich made our lab a lot of money in the resulting scare, as we were one of the first in our area to offer testing at such low levels.
There's a thing or two you should know about hexavalent chromium. One is, it's pretty unstable. Another is, it simply cannot exist in an acidic environment - like the human stomach. Heck, we would have to add base to collected samples to ensure that any Cr6 present would not degrade before we could test it. Another thing you should know is that the holding time for Cr6 unbuffered was 24hrs due to it's instability. I think any problems caused by Cr6 would likely be from inhalation, rather than ingestion for the reasons stated. I have to say that I'm skeptical of the determination that Cr6 in drinking water was the problem there, based on my own experience.
I'd love to be able to go to a different company but I can't.
Yeah, it's a bitch when the govt won't let the free market WORK, isn't it?
Now how about an answer regarding PG & E?
What about 'em? You seem to think they poisoned people for fun and profit. Heck, you even watched Erin Brockovich so obviously you know more about that than I do.
I will tell you that PG&E got royally screwed under the brilliant CA partial deregulation of energy. Not that there was much of a free market there either, but I'm sure that it was ALL the fault of the evil fucking corporations.
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