Contributors

Saturday, January 12, 2008

A Response

This is response to a post by Kevin over on Smallest Minority. The quotes are from his post or from the comments after the post.

Thanks for bringing this debate out front. I'd like to start my response with a fundamental error in judgement of myself that I think all of you have made. I guess it's understandable considering that any slight wavering away from canon here means socialism-failure-death-destruction.

Fundamentally, I have no problem with capitalism. I have no problem with CEOs making more money than their employees. Back in the day of say...George Romney (father of Mitt)...CEO salaries were just fine. Mr. Romney drew a salary of 250K at American Motors. Adjusted for inflation today, that is a couple of million. Still OK in my mind. Now, we have CEOs making much more than that and, in many cases, getting fired and leaving with hundreds of millions of dollars. Quite simply, this is sadly unfair.

What I would like to see in our culture is more companies like this one:

http://www.hermanmiller.com/

This would be an example of participative management. All of the employees feel invested in the company, regardless of their salaries, and thus, are intrinsically motivated. Their company is a huge success because of, not in spite of, collectivism. And that's the real problem here. We don't have enough people in this country that are intrinsically motivated. They are extrinsically motivated and, as a result, our culture produces people lacking in inspiration and motivation.

Your example from comments, Kevin, is appropriate here. If you divided up the pot amongst rich people and poor people, you say the poor would still be poor and the rich would still be rich. This shows a fundamental, almost Galton-esque attitude towards hereditary genius. I disagree. I think there are some rich people who haven't a clue how to run a business and some poor people who would shine at it. I do agree, though, that for able bodied individuals there should never be any sort of entitlement.

"for taking the time to explain things to the clueless among us. I just rack the shotgun."

And you wonder why gun rights folks get a bad name. Mainly this quote is important because it implies that I am clueless or lacking in intelligence. I'm not. Intelligence is the capacity for goal-directed and adaptive behavior. It involves the abilities to profit from experience, solve problems, and reason effectively. I would also add that serious individual reflection plays a large role in intelligence. With the possible exception of Bilgemen, for everyone on this blog, it seems (correct me, please, if I am wrong), that the experience is this:

1. Everyone is afforded equal chance in this country. (I could barely write this sentence without laughing btw)

2. Those that don't make it are all lazy and want to thieve from my wallet.

3. All rich people made their money honestly and through hard work and should be given the worship and adoration they deserve. (Also having trouble not laughing)

4. Anyone critical of rich people are leftists filled with envy who would all seize control and throw our country into a boiling pit of sewage.

My experience has been, with the parents of school children that I see every day, that our society is built for division. The bottom line is the poor people don't have any ladders to climb out. They don't have a choice, Kevin. They really don't. I see it. You don't. Until you move beyond the limited, albeit valid, experience you have had until now (i.e. the lazy beer drinkers with the 52 inch plasma TV), you will never understand this inequality and how bad it has become.

To be clear, BOTH political parties are to blame for this. The "rich fucking republicans" maintain control of their money with their armies of accountants and lawyers. So much for individual effort and responsibilities, eh? Many liberals and Dems want people to stay on the government tit, ensuring continued support for their machine. In the end, everyone gets what they want: no ladders out. That's why I support someone like Barack Obama. This is what he wants to do: destroy the current system and build ladders. I agree, though, he needs to get to the specifics.

There are always going to be people that think that the distribution of wealth is unfair. I agree with you to a certain extent on this point. But my example of Joe Smith is still valid. Joe gets a right to free legal defense, not as good as rich person might get, but he still gets one. So why not a financial defense? A defense from all of the companies who everyday are trying to increase their profits and doing so by fucking over Joe.

"That freedom, that immense human idea, is what has made America what it is. It is responsible for the vast wealth we have made here. It has drawn the best minds from every culture around the world, fired their imaginations, and it has made people rich."

That may have been true at one time. That America is gone. It has been replaced by Blackwater and Haliburton. I wonder what Orwell would think of these companies. What do you think he would think, hmm? Anyway, I wish that America would come back because I miss it. Our society is becoming more oligarchic every day. We are not good capitalists anymore. We are bad ones. Don't take that to mean that I want to be good socialists or communists. We have let the corporations of our country whir out of control and have allowed the people that run them to manage our lives by essentially having company reps installed in our government. These are the people that control the media, Kevin, not the fantasy of the "liberal elite."

"An inalienable right to "pursue happiness" means freedom."

More and more each day, this right is being taken away. The fundamental difference between you and I, Kevin, is who each of us thinks is responsible.

19 comments:

Anonymous said...

This post is stunning. Very very cool. The tone, the phrasing, the examples – all of it. Very well argued, kinda bloody watertight actually, though there’s no such thing when discussing “free markets” with the kevins.

Anonymous said...

Why are you wasting your time with those people, Mark? They will never listen to reason. I can't even believe some of the stuff they wrote over there. Their assessment of what it means to be liberal is the most fucked up and hilarious thing I have ever read. Do you think they actually believe that stuff?

Anonymous said...

Wow. Now I know why are country is so divided. People like Kevin want to make damn sure we stay that way.

Anonymous said...

I often marvel at the starry eyes of conservatives and their child like admiration for wealthy corporate leaders. It's almost as if they feel they are better because they have more money. And people that don't have money, well, they must just be lazy.

The reason why you don't see more conservatives in areas like education is simple: there's no money in it.

Anonymous said...

So are any of you going to add anything to the discussion? There is no nobility in poverty and there are a lot of wealthy people who are not corporate leaders truthgirl.

Kevin said...

(*sigh*)

First, let me refute this:

If you divided up the pot amongst rich people and poor people, you say the poor would still be poor and the rich would still be rich.

Here's what I actually said (in a comment, not the piece in question, with emphasis added): Take the entire population. Put all their money into one pot, then divvy it up equally. Give those people freedom, and within a couple of years, MOST of the people who were "rich" will be rich again, and MOST of the people who were "poor" will be poor again.

It's a subtle but crucial difference, and it doesn't have all that much to do with "hereditary genius." Paris Hilton would be working at a Burger King had she been born into a working-class family, I'd imagine. I'd still be working for someone else and making more money than most because I can do things most people apparently can't. But you seem to believe that ALL wealthy people are the descendants of previously wealthy people, and that is by far not the case. I'd urge you to do some research on that.

Now as to your points:

1. Everyone is afforded equal chance in this country.

Absolutely not. There is absolutely inequality of opportunity. Yet there IS opportunity. Unlike many, many other societies (as I noted in my post) THIS culture allows you to escape tradition and the prescribed life to pursue happiness - even if that happiness means working two jobs so your children won't have to.

"The bottom line is the poor people don't have any ladders to climb out. They don't have a choice, Kevin. They really don't." I recommend you pick up a copy of The Ditchdigger's Daughters. At a minimum, peruse the Amazon reviews of it. They do. It's not easy, and it's not fair. But it is opportunity. You're part of it.

2. Those that don't make it are all lazy and want to thieve from my wallet.

Again, complete bullshit, and I said so in my post (and I quote: ) "No one can tell you what will make you happy. You may, in fact, never find it. Your life may serve only as an example to others of what failure looks like, but you are free to pursue whatever you think might bring you happiness."

(Emphasis added where you so obviously missed it the first time.)

3. All rich people made their money honestly and through hard work and should be given the worship and adoration they deserve.

Also horse hockey. People do lie, cheat, and fuck over others (some of them even get rich!), but let me remind you that YOU were the one who painted with the broad brush first, declaring "Joe Smith will be able to rip off the government, sneak around laws, fuck people over and end up with all the same perks that rich folk get." The majority of rich people, Mark, get that way within the law.

4. Anyone critical of rich people are leftists filled with envy who would all seize control and throw our country into a boiling pit of sewage.

No, just anyone as critical and as you have been. Anyone as willing to use such broad brush strokes that you now accuse me of using (even though I did not.) Anyone willing to use the power of government to redistribute the wealth of the rich just to be "fair" is.

Ask Karl Marx.

Mark Ward said...

"ALL wealthy people are the descendants of previously wealthy people"

No, I don't think that and if I gave you that impression than I need to work on my communications and writing skills. I do think that most wealthy people do whatever they can to control things...things that are sometimes greater than their own lives...like cities or states for example..and, in doing so, keep poorer people at the bottom..by force.

As to the rest...generally I'm glad to hear that you think the way you do. Quite relieved, actually. Some small points..

"The majority of rich people, Mark, get that way within the law"

I disagree. Post WWII, yes. Today, would say it is about 50-50.

"Ask Karl Marx."

Marx's time is so long gone that any thoughts he had wouldn't apply today. In fact, are there any new socialist thinkers? People realize that good capitalism does work. What I am "painting with broad brush strokes" is the bad capitalism that has currently enveloped our country and our government.

Anonymous said...

Joe is not getting fucked over. No corporation forces Joe to work there and no corporation forces Joe to purchase their products.

The folks who got rich by fucking people over is the exception, not the norm. More than likely, they provide a service or have a skill set that is in demand. Does inheritance help and does having rich parents help? Sure does. That's life.

Class envy will always be popular becuase there will always be more poor than rich in our society.

Until you folks drop your victim mentality you will not change your economic condition. Show me one other country on this planet that has the opportunities we have here. Over half the population on this planet lives on less than $2 a day. I stopped complaining years ago and started being thankful for the lifestyle we have here in the US (I'm sure half of you will read that and interpret it as me saying "Well things are all hunky dory. That's not what I said and that's not what I think. There, just saved you folks some cyber-ink from your predictable responses).

Anonymous said...

"Until you folks drop your victim mentality"

That's pretty funny considering some of the "poor old conservative" stuff you have posted on here.

Anonymous said...

..and you've posted what on here?

I've never complained about my economic situation on here and don't complain in real life either. That's what I was talking about...the topic at hand.

None of you are victims...you have more opportunity than anyone else in the world. Are things perfect here in the US? Nope, far from perfect but I'll take my chances here.

Anonymous said...

Well, I've been reading the blog for about a year and just started posting when markadelphia put up his last Grab Bag--very funny by the way.

I guess I'm real tired of hearing conservatives accuse liberals of having a victim mentality when they do the same thing all the time. It's crap and you know it.

Anonymous said...

Well one of the things that amuses me (doesn’t bother me...petty things like arguing politics over the internet amuse me more than anything anymore) is that there are only 2 liberals on this blog who have shown the ability to jot down anything more than 1 short paragraph on a given issue. Usually we only get a 1 line insult where they say "Conservatives are stupid, greedy, racist, etc". Wow, thanks for that insight braniacs...as if accusing me of being intolerant of homosexuals justifies anything they say. BLK’s posts go more than 1 line but he’ll never respond to any questions anyone ever has of his posts. Mark and John Waxey at least give myself, Kevin and Justdave something to work with. Just look at the first response to the new post above about Hillary – point proven.

Corporations are made up of people, they are not faceless entities that whip their employees to do their bidding. How many of these very corporations you folks are bashing do you help by relying on their services? I would imagine that if you examined your own life, you would see why these corporations are important. Pfizer has done more to help people than it's hurt. Corporations do not force themselves on you and there are lots of nations out there who have no (or very, very few) corporations in them...North Korea, Pakistan, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia. How are things going in those countries? Again, Corporations are people, not some faceless building with a bunch of old dudes trying to figure out how to screw people. Poor and middle class people's best chance to achieve success is to go to work for these corporations if they aren’t in business for themselves. Corporations keep more people employed with their millions than Hollywood actors and big time athletes do with theirs so why only focus on corporate folks?

Of course the rich get a break from tax cuts because they pay more than we do. The "rich" are the ones that have to money to start business' and hire people. No one is saying the rich are better people or worthy of worship but from the attitudes I’ve read thus far it's sounds like some of you think the rich are bad people. Those jerks, they're working hard and getting ahead, what a bunch of dicks. Why should someone have to pay more for the same services just because they're getting ahead? Since Mark is all for government redistribution of wealth, he no doubt knows that the laws he favors, with the power of the federal government behind them, do not discriminate between the 50% who are screwing people over and the 50% who earned their money the right way – everyone is penalized. Oil companies make a profit of about 9 cents on every gallon of gas sold. The government get 16 cents in taxes on every gallon of gas sold. Who is screwing who again? Speaking of good people being penalized, remember the lawsuit recently where the guy sued the Korean immigrant dry cleaners? Sure the dollar amount of the case was reduced but the dry cleaners still had to pay $100,000 to defend themselves. People are able to use the lawsuit lottery to screw over good people everyday but we haven’t seen a column on that on here have we?

Even though we may not the happiest nation on earth, America is the wealthiest nation on Earth. We didn't get this way because of socialization, entitlement programs or government regulation; we got this way by providing incentive to achieve. Now you'd like to remove some of these incentives by penalizing the rich with more taxes, wealth redistribution, and more rewards for people who did nothing to earn the money. How is that going to help your childrens future? Our quality of life didn't come from forced taxation and wealth redistribution - it came from people like Bill Gates and Henry Ford. You don't have to like their tax rate, but your high standard of living is a direct result of their ideas and risk taking to achieve their goals. I believe our culture is so successful precisely because of the benefits it bestows on those that innovate. I know that there are exceptions to everything. For every person that you find that is making a fortune off of screwing people, I can find you one that is contributing to society through innovation. Enron was an abberation and those responsible have rightfully been subject to justice (I would have seized more of their assets and hung them but that’s just me).

I know being in favor of helping the poor makes you all feel like you are better because you think you care more. But I think it really means that you want to be good (this is noble) but you haven't quite figured out that taking from one group of people and giving it to another does not achieve your goal in the long run. Happy, happy fun time fair-for-everybody wishes are great for children's television and church, they don't work very well anywhere else. People only work hard for a reward. It's not always money, but that's certainly not the incentive to remove if you are looking for progress. I really would like to see a cure for cancer. The best way to get it is to provide an environment where the person or company that solves this problem is given a great deal of money.

The column Mark wrote about achieving equality in this country is about an *ideology* he has, and more particularly, an ideology that has its roots in Marxism. Marxism has been thoroughly and completely discredited everywhere it has been tried with the magnitude of the failure in direct proportion to the degree in which the Marxist philosophy was implemented. In countries where full-blown communism was tried, economic disaster ensued to the point that their economies collapsed under the weight of the overbearing state. In other places, such as various European countries with a large welfare state, their economies are anemic, with almost no growth or job creation because of the drag of government programs (as well as the high taxes necessary to support them) weighing down the economies. Hell a lot of our systems we have now, such as the system of 'progressive' taxation (from each according to his ability) and entitlements (to each according to his needs,) are based in the Marxist philosophy.

This is not to say that Mark is an outright Marxist or communist, but the ideas he is advocating here descend from that school of thought.

Anonymous said...

I agree with kevin (& mark, last in line, truthgirl, sara, i don't think anyone would disagree with the point in fact) that YES, in the US, there IS opportunity -- and that is a wonderful blessed rare and beautiful thing -- that ALL downtrodden (born into crap families/neighbourhoods/fractional opportunity) oppressed (not always at the point of a gun) and financially impoverished (automatically narrowing down but never completely CANCELING out the social ability to climb, self-educate, improve against the odds) individuals -- wherever in the world -- aspire to achieve.

They hold the United States and the US system -- as a MODEL. That's the problem. The paradigm has shifted -- the open society of 'opportunities' for all is becoming the 'caste' society of much MORE than class envy (which yes, has and will always exist to a reasonable degree in reasonable societies) but entrenched, unsurmountable class divisions -- maybe these divisions ALWAYS existed -- maybe Camelot NEVER existed. But the American DREAM of self-improvement was very real and realisable. That's why people can't wait to emigrate here, that's what Iraqis and Arabs, Chinese, Koreans and Indians want in THEIR countries (NOT necessarily the transplanted culture, but THE OPPORTUNITIES.) That's why Americans are proud and that's why this was NEVER a nation built on class supremacy (Europe) or landowner feudalism (Britain / Scotland) or rich-poor envy (pre Revolutionary France) or classless ideology (Soviet Union) or the worship of money, the rise of the banking seafaring gold-plundering new imperial resources owning elites (Italy, Spain, Austria and the Netherlands.)

The United States was built on the dream of DESTROYING historic class divisions and modeling a fresh start, rooted in Trust in God, respect and not only the legal assumption but the extension of 'equality' in rights and opportunities for fellow human beings and free and fair competition denied in other outposts of 'freedom.' That's all anyone wants whatever their culture, a fair shot, access to opportunity, the freedom to worship and live in security, a chance to improve what may or may not have been a lucky birthright.

That America is changing. And it's not because Kevin or Last in Line want a New Empire (i don't think..) it's because America PLC. is (accelarating in speed with time and wrong turns) becoming an extreme, class-polarised, unsatiable, greed-driven, faithless and cruel empire that it KILLED, in its very reason for being. Simply put, America under poor leadership and a loss of compass, has lost the plot. Let's hope the NEW President, a new entourage of Advisors, a re-energised and hopeful, active involved people and a new national direction at home and abroad, will prove me wrong.

Mark Ward said...

Hey, jt puts more in than just one line, crab!

Anonymous said...

When I go on my whirlwind tour of the middle east next month promoting all things conservative, I have no doubt that by the end of it, my tour will have become another hand kissing tour featuring His Majesty, the Honorable Crabmaster.

Joanne types more than 1 line becuase Joanne is special. Her and I are going out on a date when I get over there. Joanne - Daddy's coming home...I'll see you soon pumpkin.

Mark Ward said...

Be afraid, joanne. Be very afraid.

Hey, glad to hear that you weren't killed in the bomb blast in Beirut yesterday.

Anonymous said...

No not killed, unfortunately nowhere near :| But its very sad for the people who were killed (& meaningless loss of 4 lives, because the bombers achieved zero from any perspective yesterday) Apart from the occasional car bomb, this city is extremely cool. I'll take Last in Line out for an amazing dinner (food here is taken very seriously, very affordable and world class) and God, there must be at least five million things to do in the city day or night -- but NEVER ever (ever) call it a 'date' -- i don't date :) and don't call me pumpkin.

Anonymous said...

CM, thank u however for 'special' -- even though you mighta been taking the piss (brit-speak & not at all rude, my american cameramen always took me literally on that one for a while.. 'Pat.? Are you taking the piss?') i don't think i'm all that special, but it's really nice to be called it, by a unique and genuine person/gladiator.

Mark Ward said...

Actually, it's funny that you mention gladiator...Crab does kind of look like one. He could easily give Russel Crowe a run for this money.